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Johnson Lai
Senior Member
Username: Gundam

Post Number: 272
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 12:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Since this hasn't been officially decided upon yet, we can have a discussion about it:

Now that AMFR is rolling out in Toronto Divisions, what identifiers should we be wearing ?

What are the members that already have this qualification wearing right now? 2 orange bars ?


Here are my thoughts:

Since AMFR will soon be a new standard SJA requirement, then anyone wearing the SJA uniform must already have this qualification. Much like now, Std. First aid is our standard, so if you are wearing the uniform, we expect you already have Std. FA as a minimum.

However, in the transitional year(s), we need to somehow tell between who has BTS 1, 2 and who has AMFR.

My suggestion would be, can we wear the Orange bars the other way around ? Meaning, rotate the epaulette and have the bars closer to the neck.

This will avoid any extra costs, and can be done across the board immediately. Then when everyone hs AMFR, then we all take off the orange bars, because as mentioned above, AMFR will become our standard.

What are your thoughts?
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Michael Lawrence, RN
Senior Member
Username: Spud

Post Number: 62
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 03:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You are correct that by the end of the year, the minimum certification "should" be AMFR-1, but what about our new members/probationary/observers members? Often these members may have been around for 3-6 months and have completed your division's intake program and are just waiting for their MFR course. But when they go out on duty as an observer wearing a uniform shirt/sweater/jacket, how do we differentiate them from MFR members???

I think that we will still need an identifier. A set of epillauttes with "MFR" at the bottom? Keep the 1 orange bar for AMFR-1, and if anyone ever does the AMFR-2, then 2 orange bars?

Just a couple of thoughts.
-Michael
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Lana H
Senior Member
Username: Ldh

Post Number: 125
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 03:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with Michael - actually I like the "design" you have in mind - perhaps, if it's not already decided the Powers That Be would adopt it. A friend of mine who works for a private service have adopted something similar - their epaulettes read something like Medical First Responder and then they just add rank, and designates for the higher qualified personnel.
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Don Smith
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 555
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 07:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Word from Council...
"For the time being 2-bars have been used to recognize MFR (an interim direction provided through the RCSCs), however the national office has been working on a new MFR identifier which we hoped would have been released Jan., but I'm told may be closer to a March release"
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Eddy Wu
Senior Member
Username: Ewu

Post Number: 51
Registered: 12-2002
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 08:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So that means with MFR, you can wear 2 bars now at the moment?
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Michael Young
Member
Username: Myoung

Post Number: 12
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 10:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It shouldn't really matter. With the Standard FA as now being the 'substandard', those new/probationary members cannot be left alone at a duty. They need to be accompanied by an AMFR-1. SO if someone approaches you two as a pair, as long each other knows who has the AMFR-1, then it shouldn't be a problem.
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Alan Chan
Intermediate Member
Username: Achan

Post Number: 30
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 12:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Again, I think we should clarify that there are 3 levels of MFR, there is the MFR, AMFR-1 and AMFR-2.

Therefore, once AMFR-1 becomes standard minimum requirement, then I guess we can still maintain the current system for MFR=1 bar, AMFR-1=2 bars and AMFR-2 = 3 bars...

Just a thought :-)

Now, another interesting question, what about AMFR-Instructors. The current I-badge only ID SFA-ICPs. Maybe a different colour?
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William Woodstock
Senior Member
Username: Wwoodstock

Post Number: 181
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 10:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"3 levels of MFR, AMFR-1 and AMFR-2"
Yes, but then you said "once AMFR-1 becomes standard minimum requirment" the standard minimum is AMFR-1 soon, so we won't need bars for just MFR, thats just like making bars for standard f/a as well. So really, it should just be AMFR-1=1 bar, and AMFR-2=2 bars, just so that it save sja a lot of money since we all know they like to do that, instead of changing the bar colours and number of bars ect.
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Michael Lawrence, RN
Senior Member
Username: Spud

Post Number: 63
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 12:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't forget that Ontario is the only Province (that I am aware of) that uses the orange bars as BTS identifiers. Since this program is National in scope, NHQ will develop a standard for coast-to-coast.
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Michael Simpson
Advanced Member
Username: Mdsimpso

Post Number: 34
Registered: 07-2003
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 05:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How has been the member acceptance over all with the new MFR standard. I know we lost some long term members because they were good first-aiders but were not willing to step up to the MFR level.
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Hal Rowan
Senior Member
Username: Hrowan

Post Number: 84
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 03:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Instead of waiting for the National Office, why not go ahead and make suggestions from the Provincial level?

I think that the orange bars should still apply. One orange bar for level one, and two orange bars for level two. There are times when members of different Units are together in uniform (MFR, Youth, CRT) and sometimes on duty. It is a good idea to identify at a glance who has what qualifications. I have Cadets who look like adults (and a few vertically challenged adults who look like Cadets). We often interact with Units outside of our own towns/cities on duty to help each other out. In all of these cases, instead of pulling out our resumes to show each other what level we have trained to, we can see at a glance who has what qualifications because they are right there on your shoulder. Its an excellent internal SJA system that has worked extremely well.

I don't buy into the logic that the bars confuse the paramedics when they arrive at a scene either. They speak to the first SJA person they come in contact with, not the one with the most badges on their uniform. Same goes when I talk to a paramedic (I had three show up at the same time!), I talk to the first one who approaches me. I've asked paramedics this question and they said they just recognize our SJA uniforms and don't really pay any attention to where we are from (although it may come up if you are from outside of the Region and you get a chatty paramedic, usually a supervisor) or whats on our shoulder.

Rank and qualification identifiers should not be removed completely from our uniforms. It gives us a little bit of public recognition for the extra hard work we put in to earn them. Why take that volunteer recognition away from us?
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Franco Tsang
Senior Member
Username: Ftsang

Post Number: 55
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 02:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i agree with hal (one post up)
i always love to put recognitions i've acheived on my uniform~ =D
(though not in a trying to show off kind of way)
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Ken Luk
New member
Username: Arken

Post Number: 1
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 09:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

well i really think the orange bars should still be there but just a suggestion here.....like Hal said not all paramedics know what we are trained at or what those straight lines or whatever means on our shoulder so why not have our our level of training posted on our shoulder like if you're MFR then it will say MFR and if you're AMFR-1 then it will say AMFR-1 etc and to add a little comment on Johnson's first post well personally i really don't argue on rotating our ranks 180 degree because well first of all our epaulettes as we all know are narrow to wide from the neck to the shoulder so if we flip it around i think it will look awkward and plus what if those who are current in the ranking of corporal or sergerants then their rankings will look completely awkward....and the reason why i say we should at least have the orange bars are because during some duties adult division are the leading division and along with that they will have like one or two cadet divisions along with them and the crusaders in the cadet division they will have the sweater the only thing that will ID them as SFA or BTS or even AMFR are these bars and to give the adult members who have AMFR or above have like recognition =P but overall if provincial or even national are going to have new "rankings" then i think as if right now it would be easier to have the words "MRF" or AMFR-1 or AMFR-2 thread onto the epaulettes or even metal pins so we can pin it on at the wider end of the epaulettes like the police officer's ID number so to speak
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Jeff Yuen
New member
Username: Astray09

Post Number: 1
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 10:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I really think for the time being AMFR-1 should be using 2 orange bar until the end of the year when AMFR-1 is the minimum standard to all individual patient provider.
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Alex Kroeze
Senior Member
Username: Akroeze

Post Number: 273
Registered: 07-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 12:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

An orange bar can mean either AMFR-1 or BTS-1 at this point as the orange bar says you have passed what is considered the minimum needed to perform independent care. Currently the minimum is AMFR-1 or BTS-1. Two bars means you've gone beyond the minimum, of which AMFR-1 is not.
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David Greenough
Junior Member
Username: Dgreenough

Post Number: 8
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 12:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Alex:
I am going to have to slightly disagree with you on your point, True, AMFR-1 may be the min for Adult divisions, however crusaders and cadets can achieve the MFR level, and SFA, which for would be the equivilant of an adult 1-bar then, which is not true. We should retain the 2-bars signifying the higher training and allowing the MFR's when they are certified to wear one bar.
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Michael Young
Intermediate Member
Username: Myoung

Post Number: 16
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 12:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Alex, by this time, the BTS system should have been pahsed out and no longer be recognizable.

Dave, as long as no one comes around and proves me wrong, an IPCP is required to be 18 years of age or older. Since Cadets nor crusaders are of that age, then it is hard for them to be of the Adult equivalent, is it not?
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David Greenough
Junior Member
Username: Dgreenough

Post Number: 9
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 01:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Crusaders can be IPCP's I would have to look it up as to whether they need to be AMFR's or MFR's. If you recall Crusaders start at 16 and up, perhaps Don might now the crusader requirements if he is looking at this chain.
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Melissa Yingbull
Senior Member
Username: Mying

Post Number: 105
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 02:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The language overlaps here which may be the source of confusion.

You must be 16 to take the AMFR, but cannot be an IPCP until you are 18, regardless of certification.

You must have taken the AMFR to be an IPCP, regardless of age.

Crusaders are anyone aged 16 to 21-less-a-day who are actively involved in the youth program. "Adults" are anyone aged 18 and up. So anyone aged 18-21 can be both an "adult" and a crusader which, for the purposes of IPCP status, means they're an adult.

In other words, Crusaders aged 18-21 who have passed their AMFR are IPCPs, while Crusaders who are 16-17 are not IPCPs even if they have passed their AMFR.

In the Ontario BTS Orange Bar system, anyone who passed the BTS could wear the orange bars, regardless of age or IPCP status. 16-yr old Crusaders could wear the orange bars.
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Kevin Morgan
Senior Member
Username: Kmorgan

Post Number: 47
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 10:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, you can take MFR at 16 years of age BUT the orange bars indicates IPCP status, and you have to have achieved that to wear it.

The whole point is to be able to tell (at a glance) who is permitted to do what.

I don't believe cadets or crusaders who have BTS but are not 18 years of age can wear the bars.

Refer to Provincial Commisioner's Directive 07-2001 (available on this site under "Resources" and "Provincial Commisioner's Directives")

I am not certain that something newer has not come out, but I have seen nothing with respect to who is allowed to wear what bars since this.

(If there is something newer perhaps someone can post the reference)
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Kevin Morgan
Senior Member
Username: Kmorgan

Post Number: 48
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 10:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, you can take MFR at 16 years of age BUT the orange bars indicates IPCP status, and you have to have achieved that to wear it.

The whole point is to be able to tell (at a glance) who is permitted to do what.

I don't believe cadets or crusaders who have BTS but are not 18 years of age can wear the bars.

Refer to Provincial Commisioner's Directive 07-2001 (available on this site under "Resources" and "Provincial Commisioner's Directives")

I am not certain that something newer has not come out, but I have seen nothing with respect to who is allowed to wear what bars since this.

(If there is something newer perhaps someone can post the reference)
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Kevin Morgan
Senior Member
Username: Kmorgan

Post Number: 49
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 10:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My apologies - why it posted twice I am not sure - I only clicked it once
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Alan Chan
Advanced Member
Username: Achan

Post Number: 31
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 11:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree that when the whole AMFR program is up and running, then 1 Orange Bar should represent AMFR-1.

However, currently in Ontario, although there are not more BAP, but BTS still exist until the end of 2006. Therefore, you would have BTS 1/2 level providers that are out in the field. If you only allow AMFR-1 members to wear one bar, there would be members who are only certified BTS-1 wearing one bar along with AMFR-1 wearing one bar. Until Jan 2007, the confusion will still exist among members.

Again, depending on how the BTS 2 BAP is set up, there are members whom may have passed BTS 2, and but may do poorly on AMFR-1 as well.

Thus, in the mean time, I think AMFR-1 should wear two bars, until there is directive that the transition period is over.
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Michael Young
Intermediate Member
Username: Myoung

Post Number: 17
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 11:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ok Alan, this is where I get confused. Originally, the deadline for the AMFR to be rolled out was originally the end of 2004. They extended it to the end of 2005 due to the short notice. So as far as I was aware, there should be no more BTS, and the AMFR should be completely rolled out.
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Alan Chan
Advanced Member
Username: Achan

Post Number: 32
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 12:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Michael,
You are right, "originally".

However, due to whatever reason, the cut off date for BTS has been pushed back.

In Toronto, we had our last BAP session in Dec 2005. This is to accomodate the transition. Therefore, at least for us, as far as we know, BTS cut off is on Jan 1, 2007.
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Alex Kroeze
Senior Member
Username: Akroeze

Post Number: 275
Registered: 07-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 01:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Alan,

My division doesn't own any two orange bar ones because nobody ever took their BTS 2. Why should we have to buy those when they will only be used for a few more months? And in reality, after the end of this year you will hardly ever see two bars as who is going to to the AMFR-2? Not many...
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Alan Chan
Advanced Member
Username: Achan

Post Number: 33
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 02:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Alex,

You shouldn't have to buy those? They are part of the uniform and should be supplied.

I am not saying that AMFR-1 has to equal 2 bars. But currently, there are a lot of confusion on where it stands. So until National comes out with an identifier, we will continue to have this confusion, especially in Ontario, or Toronto. As I said before, it is just this transition period where there is greatest confusion.

After the complete roll out, then AMFR-1 can be one bar if there is still no new directive.

Also, technically, AMFR-I can practice patient care at AMFR-2, I believe, but I need to double check.
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Alex Kroeze
Senior Member
Username: Akroeze

Post Number: 276
Registered: 07-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 02:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Alan,

When I say we I'm referring to my division. We are a small division of <10 active members. I see this as a Toronto and area issue only personally. It is not a province wide issue from what I can tell.
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Michael Young
Intermediate Member
Username: Myoung

Post Number: 19
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 05:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Alan, thanks for the straightening out. That would have been nice for our Training Officer (me) to know.
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Kevin Morgan
Senior Member
Username: Kmorgan

Post Number: 50
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 06:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The orange bar indicates that the person is IPCP at the lowest level (which was formerly BTS-1). The lowest level being phased in is AMFR-1.

Since AMFR-1 is now the lowest level, there is no reason to identify them at a higher level than the BTS-1 people who are essentially being "grandfathered" until the end of this year or until they obtain their AMFR-1. I don't really see what the problem is, as people who were BTS-1 before could still be certified and permitted to perform skills beyond BTS 1 such as O2 admin and AED.

There is no reason to give all AMFR members 2 stripes for 10 months until everyone is AMFR-1. During the transition period people will just have to be aware that 1 bar could indicate either BTS-1 or AMFR-1.

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Eddy Wu
Senior Member
Username: Ewu

Post Number: 52
Registered: 12-2002
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 06:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interesting talks and I agree with Kevin. If we're to issue 2 bars to all newly AMFR-1 certified members, and by 2007 come 1 bar means AMFR-1, those members will have to ask for new epaulets again, and that's a bit waste of resources really. Unfortunately for the time being during the transition stage, problem for sure will occur so hope National office can come up with something soon...
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Michael Young
Intermediate Member
Username: Myoung

Post Number: 20
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 08:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry, just a relevent aside, anyone know where I can find a listing of all the available identifiers an epilautte can have (not including rank identifiers)
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Michael Young
Intermediate Member
Username: Myoung

Post Number: 21
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 08:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry, just a relevent aside, anyone know where I can find a listing of all the available identifiers an epilautte can have (not including rank identifiers)
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Eddy Wu
Senior Member
Username: Ewu

Post Number: 53
Registered: 12-2002
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 09:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Try the uniform beta website Michael. There's a link at the front page of this website.
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Paul W. J. Irwin
Senior Member
Username: Pirwin

Post Number: 134
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 09:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Red, green, blue, and orange, as far as I recall.
Red covers MD and RNP/RN, green PRN, blue BTLS and above, and orange you know the current state.

There may be others I have forgotten. If I can find where the notes are, I will post it.

;)"Be Good All Day"
Paul
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Michael Young
Intermediate Member
Username: Myoung

Post Number: 22
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 09:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dude, you're a champion.

I read through most of those pages mostly for curiosity, and i have a question regarding that reversion cross.


"8. Reversion Cross � officers who revert to the ranks, wear a reversion cross centered � inch above the base of the slip on. All previous rank markings are removed "

Basically thats saying that if i ever have to revert back to being a private (either froma unit change or whatnot) I'm given this cross to wear?

Also, I thought there was a bar to indicate a qualified Firefighter. however I don't see one. Is that true? or have I been had?
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Sarah Clarke
Senior Member
Username: Brigadesrocks

Post Number: 59
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 09:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ok is there still MRF
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Adam Prieur
Senior Member
Username: Beanmedic

Post Number: 50
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 09:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you are a commissioned officer, and you step down from any officer position, you get the crosses because once you have an officer's warrant you are an officer for life.

There was never a bar for firefighters and I suspect there never will be. What kind of qualification does a firefighter have that should be recognized by st john?
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Sarah Clarke
Senior Member
Username: Brigadesrocks

Post Number: 60
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 09:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

what is the differnace between AMFR AND MFR
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Michael Young
Intermediate Member
Username: Myoung

Post Number: 23
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 09:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

MRF?

Well, let me ask you this, why as an AMFR Instructor should I still have to pass the EPC (Emergency Patient Care) that firefighters have to take if ther is no distinction between the two courses? Technically I am allowed to pass myself on the EPC, but the Fire Marshals Office won't allow it. So there is a reason that the two are different. Also (and oh boy am I ever going to get flak for saying this), but if you were a bystander, approaching two SJA responders, and one had the Orange BTS Bar, and the other a bar signifying one as a Firefighter, which would you rather be treated by? Call me biased, but I would rather the person who makes a living in the field rather the volunteer that practices every now and then.

(and this is where every paramedic who reads these boards says something)
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Melissa Yingbull
Senior Member
Username: Mying

Post Number: 106
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 10:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I stand corrected about crusaders under 18 being able to wear orange bars. This was the case when I was last in a youth leadership role, and I am not sure how I missed (or forgot) about it changing.

/memos/directives/2001-07.p df is the most recent directive on Ontario's use of epaulette identifiers for health care professions, BTS, etc.

To recap:
red piping around epaulette = MD licensed to practice in Ontario
red bar = Reg. Nurse
green bar = Reg. Practical Nurse
blue bar = paramedic or "EMCA" with current OASIS number OR BTS certification (it's an old document)
2 orange bars = BTS 2 and 18+
1 orange bar = BTS 1 and 18+

Part of the reason for the delay in making a new set of rules about the bars may be that all the bars/colours need to be reviewed, and on a national basis.
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Melissa Yingbull
Senior Member
Username: Mying

Post Number: 107
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 10:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Michael Young wrote:
"Also (and oh boy am I ever going to get flak for saying this), but if you were a bystander, approaching two SJA responders, and one had the Orange BTS Bar, and the other a bar signifying one as a Firefighter, which would you rather be treated by? "

As a bystander or a patient from the non-SJA public, how on earth would you know which responder was which just by the colour of the bars? It's all rainbows and code to most people, and they really don't care. They might suspect that a person with 2 bars has more training than the person with 1 bar, but that's all.

And the bars are imprecise anyways, since only certain certifications are recognized, leaving many experienced and qualified St. Johners "stealthing" -- if I needed my airway managed, I'd choose the orange-bar-RRT over just about anyone.
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Adam Prieur
Senior Member
Username: Beanmedic

Post Number: 51
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 01:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let's be clear here and not forget that firefighters are not health care professionals. On the other hand, we don't (nor do we have to) give special bars to respiratory therapists, massage therapists, athletic therapists, etc. Heck, it's even fortunate that RPNs have special bars because in their practice they do not care for patients with unpredictable outcomes - this is regulated by the College. Of course emergencies are always unpredictable which is why you never see RPNs working in ERs.

My bottom line is this - there are many health care professions that are not recognized on the st john uniform. When it comes to an emergency, being able to indentify the MDs, RNs and EMCAs (and possibly RPNs) is all I care about.

SGT Adam Prieur
St. John Ambulance Hamilton D0007
Mohawk-McMaster School of Nursing '07
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Kevin Morgan
Senior Member
Username: Kmorgan

Post Number: 51
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 07:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok.. This was quite an active discussion last night, so I'll put a couple of points in one here

With the MFR/BTS bars discussion I already posted my thoughts but everyone seems to be concerned about these big problems. I do not forsee these problems. We have functioned in the former Southern District with both levels for some time and had a long transition period where we still had BTS-2s with 2 bars and AMFR-1 with one bar - it's not a big deal you just have to communicate a little and recognize the one bar is IPCP.

Michael -
With regard to your question about AMFR not accepted by fire - it is not accepted by the Fire College or Fire Marshall's office or whoever the authority on that is (I don't recall right now). It is quite expensive to have your program reviewed for acceptance. I am happier that the full program (AMFR2) meets the requirements of the Paramedic Association of Canada for EMR certification (the lowest level). A much better and more notable accomplishment for our program.

I don't see us recognizing firefighters specifically anytime soon.
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Johnson Lai
Senior Member
Username: Gundam

Post Number: 275
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 10:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Excellent discussion all. Glad everyone is participating.

How about this:

AMFR-1: we have a big letter A1
AMFR-2: we have a big letter A2

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Adam Prieur
Senior Member
Username: Beanmedic

Post Number: 52
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 01:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think if you are going to do that, you might as well add the other 3 letters so it can read AMFR-1/2. There is certainly room on the epaulette slip on.

SGT Adam Prieur
St. John Ambulance Hamilton D0007
Mohawk-McMaster School of Nursing '07
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Adam W. Guerin
Senior Member
Username: Adam

Post Number: 72
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 02:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is room on the epaulette for Advanced Medical First Responder -1/2. I think this would be an idea instead of bars, majority of the public see bars and haven't a clue what it means anyays, to this day SJA members in the public duty still get confussed as Paramedics.
If you're an A-EMCA Paramedic employed with an EMS service it would make since to ID that person's qualifications on an epaulette as well I think. Rather than the Blue bar idea that has been around for ever.
I don't for see too many Divisions upgrading to AMFR-2. Majority of the people I hear from are just complaining that the AMFR is too much up keep as it is for volunteers. I have my own thoughts on this topic however. And as apart of the Durham Regional Admin centre my Division is now officially required to have AMFR-1 as a Minimum for public duty.

Just my thoughts,

Adam
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Adam W. Guerin
Senior Member
Username: Adam

Post Number: 73
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 02:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is room on the epaulette for Advanced Medical First Responder -1/2. I think this would be an idea instead of bars, majority of the public see bars and haven't a clue what it means anyays, to this day SJA members in the public duty still get confussed as Paramedics.
If you're an A-EMCA Paramedic employed with an EMS service it would make since to ID that person's qualifications on an epaulette as well I think. Rather than the Blue bar idea that has been around for ever.
I don't for see too many Divisions upgrading to AMFR-2. Majority of the people I hear from are just complaining that the AMFR is too much up keep as it is for volunteers. I have my own thoughts on this topic however. And as apart of the Durham Regional Admin centre my Division is now officially required to have AMFR-1 as a Minimum for public duty.

Just my thoughts,

Adam
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Paul W. J. Irwin
Senior Member
Username: Pirwin

Post Number: 135
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 03:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For those with qualifications as professional paramedic there are options open to them for display on the SJA uniform. There is the previously noted blue bar, as well as the recognized yellow and blue patches for the sleeve (worn on the left) and chest (worn on the right) spelling out their qualifications. These patches are quickly recognized by their professional colleagues, and easily read by members of the public.

Using the general idea above, would a divisional style patch, the likes of which are being produced currently in large numbers, with the appropriate wording, be more visible if manufactured for display on the right chest, and be less expensive, and thus more cost effective than any design of epaulet bars that are an internal identification only?

;"Be Good All Day"
Paul
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William Woodstock
Senior Member
Username: Wwoodstock

Post Number: 183
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 04:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is my thought on it. Keep the old bars. How much money is going to be spent on replacing them? Do you really think that a cost saving organization will spend that much money on replacing something that only its members care about? I say keep the same bars. As to what paul said about the "yellow and blue patches", I'm not too sure what you mean about that. If you mean the A-EMCA patch they no longer give those out or make them.
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William Woodstock
Senior Member
Username: Wwoodstock

Post Number: 184
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 04:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Also, so add to the last post, I meant to ask this. Adam G. what division are you from?
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William Woodstock
Senior Member
Username: Wwoodstock

Post Number: 185
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 04:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Too add to my last post, I forgot to ask. Adam G. what division are you from, if I may ask?
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William Woodstock
Senior Member
Username: Wwoodstock

Post Number: 186
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 04:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Too add to my last post, I forgot to ask. Adam G. what division are you from, if I may ask?
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Jeff
Intermediate Member
Username: Trexer

Post Number: 17
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 06:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A BC member here; did Ontario use BTS pins at all with their BTS stripes?
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Adam W. Guerin
Senior Member
Username: Adam

Post Number: 74
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 06:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Before the Stripes we had BTS 1 & 2 pins
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Adam W. Guerin
Senior Member
Username: Adam

Post Number: 75
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 06:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi William, I am with Peterborough 0053.
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Adam W. Guerin
Senior Member
Username: Adam

Post Number: 76
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 06:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

William, I am with Peterborough Division.
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Michael Lawrence, RN
Senior Member
Username: Spud

Post Number: 64
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 06:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Years ago we used the BTS 1 & 2 pins instead of stripes, but because of their size and difficulty for people to read, we went to the Orange stripes (1 for BTS 1 and 2 for BTS 2) as an easy way to identify members from a far or at a glance. It also built upon the more historical method of identifying our health care provider members (namely the nurses, doctors, RPN's/LPN's, and Paramedics).

Where will go from here??? There has been a lot of discussion from the Ontario members (funny that, being an Ontario sponsored st. john website!), but little word from our other provincial cousins.

Another fly in the ointment will be, once Councils and National agree on a ?standardized national uniform? Out arguments for or against orange stripes or other epaulette markings may not be necessary if a uniform revision occurs and we end up wearing golf shirts, for example.

-Michael L.
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Jeff
Intermediate Member
Username: Trexer

Post Number: 18
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 08:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In BC we use BTS pins still with them located on the collar, one on each side. I find that as a SJA member it was easy to identify someone training as you could easily see the colour. Obviouusly this is totally different for the public.

Really though I don't know why the public needs to easily read our qualifications I mean it isn't like we need the public going "oh I don't want you I want the person with AMFR II."

Another thing to me about training levels is to me that they don't really tell much about a members ability, sure they say what course you have but they say nothing about your experience and to me I think experience means everything as training can only teach you so much. I mean to me a member who in the past only had SFA but yet was there at all duties is likely the better first aider compared to someone who just got their BTS2 but has very little patient interaction. It just seems like a big flashy badge would give the public the wrong impression about who is the better member.

Just some thoughts obviously not something that would be displayed on a badge but I think people get too hung up on training sometimes.

Also concerning a comment in a previous post about people rather having firefighters treat them then a volunteer. To me I see that as a big issue as if you always let only those who have professional training or only experienced members deal with things you will never be able to have all the volunteers get experience so that they can become better and better. What happens then when this member is alone? I think we need to do a better job to ensure that the experienced/pros don't jump in their too often and shut the new people out. SJA is a team and if the same old people keep jumping in their it really doesn't benefit SJA.

Yeah I see in the Strategic Plan 2006-08 document that they want to visit the uniform issues once again. I really don't see what the big deal is with our uniform or the fact that there is differences throughout the country. I mean I don't see why members in BC need the exact same uniform as those in Ontario. As long as everyone looks professional and the people in that area are happy with their uniform, that is all that should matter.
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Paul W. J. Irwin
Senior Member
Username: Pirwin

Post Number: 136
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 08:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The BTS 1/2 pins have remained available in Ontario since the availability to the stripe system. Those under 18, and thus not permitted to wear IPCP stripes, had the option to wear the pins above the right pocket or name tag over the right pocket. The orange striped epaulets were always an option, the expense for which was born by the unit or Member, as dictated locally.

What we have not yet noted is that this is a publicly available set of courses, thus the creation of a patch to replace the "Advanced First Aid" one is required for public sale. The replacement could then be worn below the unit identifier on the left sleeve, as was the former AFA patch. There was also a pin to signify the same, thus a pin option could be worn as an option, as it may also become available.

The real test is not what you have on, but the certification card you can immediately produced with a valid date. I have seen some wearing something that the document could not support.

Fire Service members, although their training is very broad in all aspects of their field, are normally trained to the 40 hour course level as a minimum standard, even if they are volunteers for their community.

;)"Be Good All Day"
Paul
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Steven Boa
Intermediate Member
Username: Xlq771

Post Number: 16
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 12:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just a thought, but the reason why the Ontario Fire Mashal office may require a person with AMFR-1 to still take the full EPC course is because the AMFR-1 course is only 40 hours, while at some colleges offering the Firefighter Pre-Service program, the EPC course is 60 hours didactic instruction in the first semester, followed by a 60 hour field practicum in the second semester.

(Message edited by xlq771 on March 03, 2006)
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Alex Kroeze
Senior Member
Username: Akroeze

Post Number: 277
Registered: 07-2003
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 05:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know this is past that point but why do we need stripes at all? It's an internal thing only... and members need to be aware of what they can and can't do. If someone asks you to do something that you can't, tell them. A bar on your shoulder doesn't tell them if you are comfortable doing something. When it gets right down to it, other than a bar saying that you are independent... there is no need for bars.
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Ken Luk
New member
Username: Arken

Post Number: 2
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Saturday, March 04, 2006 - 06:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey i've recently received the news that the Branch will no longer issue the certificate to us, members who have completed the AMFR course, that says we have completed whatever course, and if we want to get the certificate we have to pay for the certificate like $5 or something.... is this true???

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Michael Young
Intermediate Member
Username: Myoung

Post Number: 24
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 10:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Steve Boa, I would understand that opint of view for a qualified AMFR-1 responder, but being an AMFR/AED Instructor, I was hoping to get out of the course. When I go to class, I bring my Emergency Medical Responder text, not the EPC one, get still get better marks than pretty much everyone else. That was the only thing that frustrated me.
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Kevin Morgan
Senior Member
Username: Kmorgan

Post Number: 52
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 11:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ken:

If this is so, it is probably a branch thing. I would take that up with your DS, RCSC or branch rep as appropriate. I think divisions/branches are encouraged to hold certificates for a period of time to prevent new people from joining to get a cert and then leaving.

Michael : Different program - different requirements - too bad. A firefighter joining SJA who just took EPC still has to take MFR. An EFR instructor from Red Cross joining still has to take MFR.

And I didn't realize the firefighter medical portion was 60 hours, as I understand it there is really no more than what we cover in an MFR course. I think they just get more class/practice time to cover the material.

Anyway, this whole thread is really digressing from AMFR identifiers, perhaps a new one needs to be opened to discuss these other topics?
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Steven Boa
Intermediate Member
Username: Xlq771

Post Number: 17
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 04:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The EPC course length varies, depending on the college. At Georgian, the program runs 42 hours didactic instruction in semester 1, and again in semester 2. In semester 3, the students spend 42 hours in a field practicum, that is divided between an ambulance placement, and a fire prevention placement.

The EPC course that is offered to volunteer firefighters at the Ontario Fire College is divided into 2 levels.

EPC level 1 is 8 full days in length. The required texts (there are 3 required books, plus 8 recomended books) include Brady's Pre-Hospital Emergency Care, Mosby's Anatomy and Physiology for Emergency Care, and the MOH BLS Patient Care Standards book.

EPC level 2 is a further 10 days in length, and uses Mosby's Paramedic textbook.

Here is the website for the EPC information from the Ontario Fire College:

http://www.ofm.gov.on.ca/english/Education/Firecollege/calen dar05.asp#Firefighter_Emergency_Patient_Care_Level_1_(Formerly_First_Responder)_

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